The role of prayer in our lives: Part Two
 Regular Network Norwich columnist James Knight continues to look at the topic of prayer.
In this, the second and concluding message on the subject of prayer, I want to look at prayer from a slightly different angle. You can hear some people misunderstanding the real benefits of prayer when they say, ‘God does not need our advice about how to run the world’. The implication is, ‘If He is all-knowing then surely He knows best before we even begin to ask for things’. A corollary of that is the expectation that if He is all-loving and benevolent, He will do good things regardless of our supplication. Now straight away we can see that there are certain kinds of prayer to which this point is not relevant. The highest form of worship and the numinous sense of awe which occurs in devotional prayer is not of this kind; that is, there is no request, only praise. Most people would agree that if there exists a loving, all-powerful Creator, He is most definitely worthy of praise.
The highest of all prayers
So the distinction we are making here is the one between devotional prayer and prayer in which we ask for God to intervene in something or bring something to someone. These are the kind of prayers which stir up most ambivalence among debaters. I presume that it would be right to say (I am not certain) that the sort of prayer which embodies awe and praise with no request attached to it is the highest of all prayers. To praise Him with numinous awe is to be in a temporal state where the cognisance knows no prospective changes for the better at that moment. In other words requests are in abeyance - worship is the only thing on the mind. There is no thought of us suggesting that the supplicatory prayers are unwelcome, for God Himself tells us that we should ask for things on our spiritual journey and that He will give abundantly to those who ask with His will in mind.
I have read about people who abstain from supplicatory prayers - asking God for nothing - attempting to live their lives in an unadulterated worshipful state. Now I think (and again I am not certain) that one whose worshipful inclination comes as a result of discharging the second type of prayer on grounds that to ask God for things for the self is the least good thing out of all types of asking might not be far from the ‘full life’ that Christ spoke about. The difference largely depends on the reason why the man thinks that asking is not a good thing. A gambler who asked God to help him quit his habit because he wants to live a better life would certainly be admired. But a gambler who did not ask because deep down he didn’t really want to quit, or because he did not think that asking would do any good would not be so admired.
The point about asking for favourable things and whether a benevolent God should be giving them anyway is a bit more involved. The principal problem of saying ‘If He were a good God He would be doing what I asked anyway’ is that such a statement can be used for justifying the abrogation of supplicatory prayer. In fact, if this were true, it would surely constitute an argument for our doing nothing at all. Every move we make and every action we take involve our attempt to bring about a result of some kind. I reach up in my cupboard for the gravy powder, the result is that I have gravy on my vegetables. Why not take it further and say that if God wanted me to have gravy on my vegetables He would make it appear on them? The problem is obvious - it obviates our necessity in creation. It affects the responsibility that God has given to us in creating us. He has given us, as Pascal said, ‘the dignity of causality’ He has given us the freedom to be contributors in creation - the blessing of being able to collaborate with Him. An analogy which I like, one that I didn’t invent, is the analogy of a playwright. He writes the story and the structure but the actors are left to improvise minor details of the story. If the dignity of causality involves our being involved in creation, then it certainly follows that God instituted prayer - a type of prayer - in order that this might be fully realised. God created the whole universe and the evidence seems to be that He has created us with the capacity to know (in time) almost everything about its nature, its structure, its properties, and the multitude of activities concealed within it (including human psychology and reasoning).
The dignity of causality is underpinned by the fact that there are a great many things that God has not yet done on earth. Every single person in creation is on his or her own separate journey, and the multitude of activity both in actions and in prayers is creating a dream of which we are not, as yet, fully cognisant. A soldier who goes to war for the sake of peace is in a different position to the clergyman who prays for peace every day. The dignity of causality comes with guarantees, themselves fixed by the natural laws; it is up to us to play a part in that which will bring praise to God. I have found that to pray for things brings with it a certain peace which helps in praising Him. Whether the prayer is granted or refused, one knows that the outcome was a discretionary wish of our Lord, for He knows what is best for us at all times and He knows more than we do that if He is refusing a prayer it must be because He has a better plan for us; one which He will reveal to us when He knows we are ready.
There are no favourites with God
Our act of prayer must not be separated from the continuous act of God Himself any more than all of our other acts. There are no favourites with God; Christ’s refusal proves that. God does not answer more frequently those who serve Him best, because He who served Him best of all, did not have the cup of suffering taken away from Him at Gethsemane. In fact, when Christ said on the cross, while enduring tortuous pain - ‘Father, why have you forsaken Me?’ - He was not at all comforted by His Father. He couldn’t be, because He had to die, so that we could be saved. Love has never been more profound.
 There is one prayer, in my experience, which will be continually answered, and that is our prayer for wisdom. And the simple reason is this; God desires that we become wiser and wiser, as we gradually become more and more like Christ. It is not difficult for us to understand why some of our prayers are not granted, because God’s wisdom must sometimes refuse what ignorance may quite innocently ask. In fact, in retrospect, I am glad that God did not answer some of my prayers, as He clearly had something better in store for me than the things I was actually praying for.
However, there is one thing about prayer that I should mention, which could seem quite contradictory to unbelievers. There are two types of petitionary prayer, which at first seem inconsistent, but with a little thought, are clearly not. They are, at times, inconsistent in the practical sense, but if our faith is as strong as it should be, that problem can soon be circumvented. The first type of petitionary prayer, the Lord’s Prayer, which has the clause - ‘Your will be done’, and that clause, by its very nature must modify the sense in which the following petitions are made. Nothing can be asked that is not in accordance with His will. But ‘Your will be done’ should not be simply a submission, it should progress increasingly into joy and desire. To simply treat it as submission impoverishes the prayer itself. But though the prayer should be something greater than mere submission, it should be no less than submission. We should know that His refusal of these requests will be wholly just and salutary. He will stand vindicated. To me, the first type of prayer presents no theoretical difficulties, even though my refractory nature and turbulent hopes will find plenty of practical difficulty in following it.
We are not to pray with any assurance that we shall receive what we ask, and this seems to me compatible with our preparation for a denial, if it should occur. But there is second type of faith to which I was referring; it is a cruder sort; faith that everything the petitioner asks will be given to him. It is as if God commanded of us a faith that even Christ did not possess. There are verses in the Bible where faith is, so to speak, vicarious. Thus the necessary faith in the case of the afflicted servant (Mathew 8:13) is not his own but that of his master the Centurion. The healing of the Canaanite child (Matthew 15:28) depends on her mother’s faith. But this is not simply faith that a particular healing will take place, it is a deeper, more complete faith in Christ Himself. There are times, of course, when numinous feelings occur because of an attraction to a particular ability or gift. Thus in Matthew 9:28, the blind men are asked not ‘Do you believe in Me?’ but ‘Do you believe that I can do this?’. The words are ‘that I can’ not ’that I will’, but both really amount to the same thing - to believe He will is to believe He can, and to believe He can is to believe He is God. To believe simply, that He can, implies the corollary - ‘Because He is God’.
But what may we say of Matthew 14:31, where Peter is reproached for his ‘little faith’? He had lost his faith and he sank into the waves whilst trying to walk on water. It seems that Peter might have had a degree of faith in the power of God and yet been entirely uncertain whether he could continue walking on water. For in that case his faith would surely have told him that whether he walked on water or whether he sank he was equally in God’s hands, and he would have prepared himself, so far as feebleness allowed, to glorify God either by living or by drowning; and his failure, if he failed, would have been due to a tainted or flawed humiliation of instinct, but not to a lack of faith.
But let us now turn back to prayer. Matthew 21:22 says that whatever you ask for in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith. But can we take that to mean ‘having an overall faith in the omnipotence and goodness of God?’ We cannot. A lot depends on what type of prayer we use - the first type or the second. You can either pray with confidence that the prayer will be answered no matter what, or you can pray with ‘Your will be done’ in mind, preparing for a refusal of that particular prayer and putting all faith into the belief that even if it were denied, the denial would be for our betterment, therefore it would be a merciful denial. I believe the latter type of prayer is the most successful.
What if one were put off prayer, believing that God will only answer if He wishes to, therefore rendering it pointless? I have of course covered this point in last week’s message, but what if, when you were young, your father said you could have anything you want for Christmas and when you asked for a skateboard gave you a text book instead, then first disclosing the dormant reservation with which the promise was made? Of course the text book may be more edifying than the skateboard, but that is not where the difficulty, the sense of inconsistency, lies. You would be tempted to complain, not that the skateboard was denied, but that the promise of ‘anything you want’ was made.
One thing is perfectly clear, whatever else faith may mean, I feel quite sure that it does not mean any state of cognitive certitude such as might be - I think it sometimes is - assembled from within by the natural action of a strong inclination upon the amenable and obedient imagination. The faith that accomplishes all things is a gift from the One who created all things. We should, I think, regard ourselves as spiritually flawed, and use petitionary prayer (among other types) as a way of requesting that we should be more like Christ. It is then that whatever we ask for shall be given, and, thankfully for those who wish to grow in wisdom, that includes wisdom itself. God, when He became a man, chose to be united to a human nature not of impenetrable nerves but to a nature sensitive and unable to live through the dreadful conditions He endured - He chose that night to sink to the depths of Christian experience, to resemble, not the heroes of His creation, but the very weakest of His creation. It is here that we can say that the poor really are blessed, because the poor know that they rely solely upon God sustaining them. To be sustained by God is to truly experience the ‘full life’ to which Christ was referring.
That’s it from me for this year. By this time next week I will have started my Christmas holiday, and will be away until the beginning of January. Let me take this opportunity to wish all the Network Norwich readers a very happy Christmas, and I hope the New Year is full of happy moments and rich blessings for everyone.
I hope you can join me next year as we cover many more key issues, important topics and exciting subjects.
All the very best
James
The views carried here are those of the author, not of Network Norwich, and are intended to stimulate constructive debate between website users. We welcome your thoughts and comments, posted below, upon the ideas expressed here. You can also contact the author direct at james.knight@norfolk.gov.uk
James is a Norwich local government officer, author and Proclaimers church member in Norwich. You can access his current collections of columns here
Meanwhile, if you want to find out more about Christianity, visit: www.rejesus.co.uk
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| | | John Payne (Guest) | 10/12/2008 12:57 | You haven't discussed the difference between 'in the closet prayer' and spoken prayer in groups of beleivers. I'm rubbish at closet prayer but if you ask me to pray or say grace the words just tumble out. Can you do prayers without words ? I guess that's contemplative prayer but I'm rubbish at that too.
| | | | Judy Halsey (Guest) | 10/12/2008 14:03 | "We are not to pray with any assurance that we shall receive what we ask, and this seems to me compatible with our preparation for a denial, if it should occur."
James, are you really saying we should pray and not expect God to give us what we pray?
Isn't that total lack of faith???? If we have faith as small as a mustard seed, we can say to a mountain "go", and it WILL go!!!
How does that tie in with Scripture?
"If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask WHAT YOU DESIRE,and IT SHALL BE DONE for you? By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be my disciples." John 15:7,8
These verses suggest that God not answering us is, in fact, because we are not fulfilling the condition..abiding in Jesus.. not that He has something better or won't answer us.
Are you, by what you are saying, expecting God to answer straight away? The answer may take a while because He has to do lots of things to bring it to being, and there may be spiritual powers of darkness delaying the answer. Daniel 10:12-14
When you talk about the Lord's prayer, it is not really a "submission" prayer Jesus taught us to pray, but a prayer that He DEFINITELY wants answered!! "May Your will be done on earth AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.
The Lord wants us to be praying that prayer very positively to see God's Kingdom of truth and justice and righteousness here on earth, and not to see satan, by his demonic power, having any authority.
As to "prayer which embodies awe and praise with no request attached to it" being the highest sort of prayer.. Yes. We must come to God and praise and worship Him, but prayer to Him is very important in His eyes..It is the way that stuff gets done on earth, and part of the way we become His representatives here on earth. Jesus is now in Heaven, interceding for us..So to Him, praying is VERY important!
You are right about God answering prayers for wisdom, because He says He will, in James 1:5, as long as (another condition) we ask in faith.
"To be sustained by God is to truly experience the full life to which Christ was referring." I think the "abundant" life is a lot more than just sustenance!! If we abide in Jesus and are full of His Holy Spirit, the Lord will use us to bring His Kingdom down on earth, as it is in Heaven. We will see continued answers to prayer and, through our lives, will give Him much glory!! Amen!
| | | | James Knight (Guest) | 11/12/2008 09:37 | Thank you for the responses thus far. Beginning with John’s two queries about spoken prayer and prayer in groups. I personally find it helpful to speak words of prayer rather than just saying them in my head. I have a mind that is forever drifting from topic to topic, therefore I find my prayers are more focused if my lips are used in prayer. As for praying in groups, well, even in groups one is only ultimately responsible for one’s own prayers and thoughts, therefore the ontology of first person selfhood can only really capture the things we have been discussing in these two messages.
Regarding your issues, Judy, I will simply comment on the parts with which you seem to have difficulty, as there is no reason here to comment on that parts on which we are agree.
This first bit..
################################# "We are not to pray with any assurance that we shall receive what we ask, and this seems to me compatible with our preparation for a denial, if it should occur." James, are you really saying we should pray and not expect God to give us what we pray?
Isn't that total lack of faith???? If we have faith as small as a mustard seed, we can say to a mountain "go", and it WILL go!!!
How does that tie in with Scripture? ##################################
This falls under the category of misreading my text and misunderstanding my intention. Look at the paragraph that precedes the one to which you are drawing attention, and then look what immediately follows. Here I talk of two types of petitionary prayer, the first ‘that there is no assurance if it is not of His will’ and the second, where there is a promise that what we desire shall be done for us. The objection you have is based on a misunderstanding of the first and second type of petitionary prayer; that is to say, my ‘we are not to pray with any assurance’ was linked to my previous statement about “turbulent hopes will find plenty of practical difficulty in following the prayer”. In other words, I was making clear that ‘we shall receive whatever we ask for in prayer’ was not compatible with those turbulent hopes of gaining voluminous amounts of things beyond what is required for a passionate and dedicated life in Christ (for example, some material things) - things that are not necessarily of His will. In short, that is not the right approach to take into “whatever you ask for..” I find it odd that you should attempt as a model for rebuttal a defence using the very type of petitionary prayer that I move onto in the very next sentence, which suggests to me you have been hasty in your objection and not read it properly (four question marks doesn’t make your objection any more valid, if it’s a hasty one, ho hum). Moreover, your two further statements..
“These verses suggest that God not answering us is, in fact, because we are not fulfilling the condition..abiding in Jesus.. not that He has something better or won't answer us” . “Are you, by what you are saying, expecting God to answer straight away?”
Neither of the above are intimated in my messages, so I’m not sure of your reason for bringing them up. In fact, I do say “It is not difficult for us to understand why some of our prayers are not granted, because God’s wisdom must sometimes refuse what ignorance may quite innocently ask”. And also, “In retrospect, I am glad that God did not answer some of my prayers, as He clearly had something better in store for me than the things I was actually praying for.” What you have to remember is that we are only sampling small parts of God’s plan for us at any one time, therefore it is a journey of steady growth and continually acquired wisdom. God will respond if our prayers are of His will - it is up to us to live a life which is consistent with His will. With the best will in the world, we will fail, but that shouldn’t stop us trying. The standard response when one is charged with a ‘my way or the wrong way’ interpretation is usually, ‘Oh but of course, it’s GOD’S way that is important’. Certainly it is, but when I suggest that someone is adopting a ‘my way or the wrong way’ system of thought I mean that it is their interpretation of ’God’s way’ that is questionable, not WHETHER God’s way is best or not, for obviously it is.
Next you say..
“When you talk about the Lord's prayer, it is not really a "submission" prayer Jesus taught us to pray, but a prayer that He DEFINITELY wants answered!! "May Your will be done on earth AS IT IS IN HEAVEN. The Lord wants us to be praying that prayer very positively to see God's Kingdom of truth and justice and righteousness here on earth, and not to see satan, by his demonic power, having any authority.”
I’m not sure what you are arguing against here, or, in fact, why you see this as wrong. By any of the standard dictionary definitions of ‘submission’, no prayer departs (or ‘should’ depart) from the ‘submission’ rubric.
Submission: 1) the act or instance of submitting something for consideration. 2) the state of being humble 3) the act or instance of submitting to the authority of another.
All three apply to, or have the potential to apply to, all types of prayer. If I had just said ‘submission’ I would have been covered, and we’d be debating the semantic usage, but straight away I go on to explain further when I say…
“But ‘Your will be done’ should not be simply a submission, it should progress increasingly into joy and desire. To simply treat it as submission impoverishes the prayer itself. But though the prayer should be something greater than mere submission, it should be no less than submission.”
To be ‘greater than mere submission’ naturally involves “praying that prayer very positively to see God's Kingdom of truth and justice and righteousness here on earth” - my point is that mere submission is not great enough. I say ‘no less than submission’ meaning that any prayer which fails on definitions 1, 2 and 3 above would be less than is minimally required (particularly definitions 2 and 3).
| | | | James Knight (Guest) | 11/12/2008 09:38 | Quite frankly Judy, the tenor of your criticism is indicative of a proprietary ‘my way or the wrong way’ type of faith, always with the added suggestion that ‘my way is closer to God’s way than others’ - ripples of which can be found in many exclusivist ‘them and us’ movements. For me, your view is too ‘right-brained’ and smacks of fideism dressed up as Gnostic superiority. Porting the tenure of your conviction across broader and equally deeply felt categories it looks as though you have adopted too much thinking already postulated by the Christian equivalent of pop-psychology. I think one can be too influenced by a right brain Christian cadre that seeks to promote a visible partitioning of those ‘in the know’ and those that tackle these issues more successfully with a greater sense of realism. Roughly those that think moving the mountain means (rightly) moving a bit at a time and those that think (wrongly) that one can seek comfort in the illusion of that which is ‘possible’ and ‘impossible’ - those that proudly and sententiously declare the strength of their all-encompassing faith but always remain stuck with the erroneous view that they could move the mountain ‘if they wished’, but that wishing is enough.
Your suggestion that one should move the whole thing very obviously overlooks the salutary lessons that one learns about oneself in the ‘moving bit by bit’ phase, while all the time failing to realise that he who moves his mountain bit by bit is showing greater wisdom than he who spends his whole life pushing it and wondering why it never budges. So frankly I have to say that your own prima facia case for promoting better faith with a catch-all methodology rather overlooks the fact that one can possess the faith that you so readily insist on, yet to the overseeing third parties he can also appear to be rather more measured and circumspect in his methods. Similarly the lady that sits quietly in church in a contemplative and introspective mood with little animation can, when it comes to God, have more fire, passion and enthusiasm in her belly than the lady next to her who is jumping around with her hands in the air.
All you are doing at the moment is simply selecting from a stock of Biblical verses that can be culled from the standard ‘my way or the wrong way’ proprietary grouping and stringing them together under the guise of deep worshipful ‘pin faith to the mat’ analyticity. But to me this so often gives the impression that in close proximity are the murmuring echoes of a façade, an interface that tends to hide one’s own issues and attempts to draw attention away from the plank in one’s own eye by directing everyone to the speck in your neighbour’s eye.
I hope this doesn’t apply to you but in my experiences those that are always ready to bring to attention parsimonious use of faith are so often those that have little confidence in their own abilities to harmonise an inner passion with a realistic philosophical worldview. Therefore one usually has to go, and it usually the latter. Judy, I have a very different approach to you. As a human that (like every other human) only ever samples sparsely the deep interworkings of every mind I meet, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt and not be overly judgmental if someone’s view of faith does not seem to accord with my own. Instead of jumping in feet first, making hasty assumptions and misreading the signals, I tend to start with the more carefully considered approach which brings with it a more realistic view of how one can achieve all that God wishes for us in faith and in Christ’s love, and how we can help our neighbour to do so as well. Only then can one take the important Bible verses on prayer and understand them as they are supposed to be understood, and more importantly as God intended, as continua, not as inert and static.
For the purposes of helping you see my viewpoint more clearly and to help you see where your criticism might involve the throwing of loaded dice, I have taken a few statements included in the above message - for here I think you’ll see that what you thought was absent was, in fact, the central theme of this week’s message:
“God Himself tells us that we should ask for things on our spiritual journey and that He will give abundantly to those who ask with His will in mind.”
“If the dignity of causality involves our being involved in creation, then it certainly follows that God instituted prayer - a type of prayer - in order that this might be fully realised.”
“It is up to us to play a part in that which will bring praise to God”
“Whether the prayer is granted or refused, one knows that the outcome was a discretionary wish of our Lord, for He knows what is best for us at all times and He knows more than we do that if He is refusing a prayer it must be because He has a better plan for us; one which He will reveal to us when He knows we are ready.”
“Our act of prayer must not be separated from the continuous act of God Himself any more than all of our other acts.”
“The healing of the Canaanite child (Matthew 15:28) depends on her mother’s faith. But this is not simply faith that a particular healing will take place, it is a deeper, more complete faith in Christ Himself”
“The faith that accomplishes all things is a gift from the One who created all things. We should, I think, regard ourselves as spiritually flawed, and use petitionary prayer (among other types) as a way of requesting that we should be more like Christ. It is then that whatever we ask for shall be given, and, thankfully for those who wish to grow in wisdom, that includes wisdom itself.”
Best wishes
James
| | | | XXX (Guest) | 12/12/2008 04:14 | After fellowship which was sincere and absolute, one brother said to the other brother "thank you for washing my feet, but the water too hot". Let the peace of Christ arbitrate in your heart, its great! Members one of another.
| | | | James Knight (Guest) | 12/12/2008 09:38 | Yeehah brother XXX - peace be upon you.
| | | | (Guest) | 12/12/2008 21:28 | "My way or the wrong way!" I just love that phrase James. I'm looking for the first opportunity to use it.
| | | | Timothy V Reeves (Guest) | 12/12/2008 21:29 | "My way or the wrong way"! I just wanted to hear it again!
| | | | Judy Halsey (Guest) | 04/01/2009 18:46 | Dear James It has taken me this long to reply to what you wrote (above) as your comments appeared to be more about "me" than about what I wrote. I found what you said about me in a personal way quite hurtful, and don't think this web site should be used that way. Have we not got the right to disagree with each other? I am very passionate about prayer. In no way did I intend what I wrote to sound as though my prayers are superior to others or anything else like that, implicated by you. I'm sorry if that came across. My points were mainly raised through my reading of many books on prayer by men and women of God, that have really challenged me and made me feel that my life of prayer could me so much more, based on their testimonies and what Jesus and others said in the bible. Regarding the "move the mountain" point, I have used that promise not for "real" mountains, such as in Wales, but mountains in my own life, or others, that need to be removed; for example, a mountain of unbelief; or grief; or illness - something that may seem to the eye to be immmovable, but which will move by prayer in faith. I do believe God wants us all to move forward in our prayer lives. The Lord has really challenged me on how much, as God's people, we are allowing satan to do because we do not pray in an effectual way. Thank you for your messages and the time you spend doing them. Judy
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